The United States: A.J. Foyt Jr., Mario Andretti, Jimmy Bryan, Roger Ward, Bobby Unser, Al Unser Sr., Al Unser Jr., Mel Kenyon, Rich Vogler, Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bill Vukovich, Mauri Rose, Louis Meyer, Rick Mears, Mark Donohue, etc., etc., etc.

1.- Brasil : Senna, Fittipaldi, Piquet.
2.- Scotland: Clark, Stewart.
3.- England: Moss, G. Hill, Mansell.

Tied for 4.- France & Finland: Prost, Loeb. / Hakkinen, Makinen, Raikkonen, K. Rosberg.

How in the heck has Nelson Piquet been left off the list of great Brazilian drivers? A THREE TIME world driving champion!!!

Brazil and Finland have an amazing ability to turn out great drivers. After that, it seems to depend partly on what form of racing you want to look at. The US turns out great oval track racers. Of course, we also turn out great football (not the soccer "football") players since we're the only country that plays it (in a similar vein, the UK kicks tail in cricket).

Open wheel road racers? I don't think the US is anything special. Two WDC's in the history of grand prix, and both of those are open to debate (Phil Hill was not nearly the driver Sterling Moss was, and Mario unfortunately benefited from Ronnie Peterson's death--I doubt he could have beat Ronnie in a season long head-to-head). In the last 25 years, US F1 participation has been a joke.

TopKart - 08 August 2008 09:58 AM

How in the heck has Nelson Piquet been left off the list of great Brazilian drivers? A THREE TIME world driving champion!!!

Brazil and Finland have an amazing ability to turn out great drivers. After that, it seems to depend partly on what form of racing you want to look at. The US turns out great oval track racers. Of course, we also turn out great football (not the soccer "football") players since we're the only country that plays it (in a similar vein, the UK kicks tail in cricket).

Open wheel road racers? I don't think the US is anything special. Two WDC's in the history of grand prix, and both of those are open to debate (Phil Hill was not nearly the driver Sterling Moss was, and Mario unfortunately benefited from Ronnie Peterson's death--I doubt he could have beat Ronnie in a season long head-to-head). In the last 25 years, US F1 participation has been a joke.

It is not a joke. We are serious about ignoring F1.

NoviVespa3 - 08 August 2008 10:23 AM

TopKart - 08 August 2008 09:58 AM

How in the heck has Nelson Piquet been left off the list of great Brazilian drivers? A THREE TIME world driving champion!!!

Brazil and Finland have an amazing ability to turn out great drivers. After that, it seems to depend partly on what form of racing you want to look at. The US turns out great oval track racers. Of course, we also turn out great football (not the soccer "football") players since we're the only country that plays it (in a similar vein, the UK kicks tail in cricket).

Open wheel road racers? I don't think the US is anything special. Two WDC's in the history of grand prix, and both of those are open to debate (Phil Hill was not nearly the driver Sterling Moss was, and Mario unfortunately benefited from Ronnie Peterson's death--I doubt he could have beat Ronnie in a season long head-to-head). In the last 25 years, US F1 participation has been a joke.

It is not a joke. We are serious about ignoring F1.

Ask both Mario and Phil Hill if they thing F1 is a joke. I think both would tell you they take it seriously. If we haven't produced much in the way of F1, blame it on geography and three thousand miles of ocean between ourselves and the Europeans. And there's that little matter I alluded to about a training series to feed F1.

the question was 'which country produces the best race car drivers', not produced. History being the benchmark I can't disagree with what anyone has said here. Senna was my personal favorite in F1 and probably Hans Stuck in sports cars.

But which country produces the best? The answer is the country that provides the best route to the top levels of motorsports? When I lived in England I was involved in club racing in the Austin-Healey Club and held an RAC competition license. England, not being as litigious as the states, made it easy for the novice to get into racing relatively inexpensively. I had a stock Sprite with a header and a rollbar. Class legal and safe for the class. All I had to do to get my license was to get permission from ACCUS and pass a physical. That and a small fee got me a novice license. I think I paid less than 20 pounds for the license and that included 5 pounds for expedited service from the RAC. Three steward's signatures for safe results at three different events and my license was upgraded to a national license.

At the same time the SCCA was (and still is) making you jump through too many hoops to get licensed and start competing. Two driving schools when it was convenient for them. Not only do you have the cost of the car but you also have to use a chunk of your racing budget to get licensed. And, unless things have changed, there aren't that many driving schools through the year and finding one convenient to you when you are ready could mean a several months wait. I got my permission to race internationally from ACCUS in January or February of 1986, had my doctor fill out the RAC forms when I had my annual physical in February and raced at Snetterton in late March/early April. When I returned to the states in 1988 I joined the SCCA and inquired about transferring my RAC license to an SCCA license. I was told I would have to complete at least one driving school. I passed on the idea.

I'm rambling so I'll just say this. Every country has the potential of producing excellent racing drivers but not every country is willing to do so. The current state of the Litigious States of America means that it is money that gets you into racing, talented or not. A lot of potentially good drivers will be left by the wayside because of costs, even at the club level. England made it easier and cheaper to get started so their young drivers have the potential to go further in their endeavors because more opportunities are available to them at relatively little cost. Of course once you move past the club level the costs go up exponentialy and all becomes equal no matter where you come from but with more exposure (from cheaper racing) at the lower levels theoretically the easier it will be to be noticed and move up.

That's my $.02 (or $1.25)

tyrone - 10 August 2008 03:50 PM

the question was 'which country produces the best race car drivers', not produced. History being the benchmark I can't disagree with what anyone has said here. Senna was my personal favorite in F1 and probably Hans Stuck in sports cars.

But which country produces the best? The answer is the country that provides the best route to the top levels of motorsports? When I lived in England I was involved in club racing in the Austin-Healey Club and held an RAC competition license. England, not being as litigious as the states, made it easy for the novice to get into racing relatively inexpensively. I had a stock Sprite with a header and a rollbar. Class legal and safe for the class. All I had to do to get my license was to get permission from ACCUS and pass a physical. That and a small fee got me a novice license. I think I paid less than 20 pounds for the license and that included 5 pounds for expedited service from the RAC. Three steward's signatures for safe results at three different events and my license was upgraded to a national license.

At the same time the SCCA was (and still is) making you jump through too many hoops to get licensed and start competing. Two driving schools when it was convenient for them. Not only do you have the cost of the car but you also have to use a chunk of your racing budget to get licensed. And, unless things have changed, there aren't that many driving schools through the year and finding one convenient to you when you are ready could mean a several months wait. I got my permission to race internationally from ACCUS in January or February of 1986, had my doctor fill out the RAC forms when I had my annual physical in February and raced at Snetterton in late March/early April. When I returned to the states in 1988 I joined the SCCA and inquired about transferring my RAC license to an SCCA license. I was told I would have to complete at least one driving school. I passed on the idea.

I'm rambling so I'll just say this. Every country has the potential of producing excellent racing drivers but not every country is willing to do so. The current state of the Litigious States of America means that it is money that gets you into racing, talented or not. A lot of potentially good drivers will be left by the wayside because of costs, even at the club level. England made it easier and cheaper to get started so their young drivers have the potential to go further in their endeavors because more opportunities are available to them at relatively little cost. Of course once you move past the club level the costs go up exponentialy and all becomes equal no matter where you come from but with more exposure (from cheaper racing) at the lower levels theoretically the easier it will be to be noticed and move up.

That's my $.02 (or $1.25)

All you say may be true. But, what you describe sounds like a person aspiring to go into some sort of sports car or F1 or some other forumla racing. But, in the United States you do not have to go that route to get into the top teir racing, NASCAR. A guy can start out with a jalopy at about $100 plus modifications and go racing towards the top tier.

You are absolutely correct. The examples I gave related to the series run by the 'best' drivers listed by the other posters. A person can get into racing cheaply by going the route you describe but it stops shortly after you graduate from hobby stocks. IMCA modifieds are a relatively cheap series in comparison to outlaw late models which is relatively cheap in comparison to ASA or ARCA but 'relative' in each of these classes boils down to financial backing and/or sponsorship unless you have a very good paying job. Cheap is a term you have to define for your own circumstance. If you aspire to race in a spec series (NASCAR, Grand AM, IRL) and have the talent and backing to get there that is a good place to start your trek to infamy.

There is still cheap racing here. If you just want to have fun on a Saturday night at the local bullring or at the local dragstrip it's all there I've considered doing both over the past few years but all I wanted to do when I returned from England was road race in a touring sedan class and the SCCA makes it a little harder to do and there just aren't that many road courses around here.

I have to take exception to your comment that NASCAR is the top tier of racing in this country. When you look at driver talent, technology, speed and diversity of the competition I would have to say that the ALMS is the only series that meets that criteria. NASCAR is the most popular racing series but until they run in the rain on the road courses like they do in the British and German touring car series' they will never be, in my opinion, world class.

There are 5 great lies told today. The first is "The check's in the mail". The next two I can't reveal on this forum. The fourth is "Budweiser is good beer." and the fifth is "NASCAR is good racing". Again, just my opinion.

I am sure that I could set up parameters to make NASCAR the greatest, just like you set up parameters to make your ideal the best. You might be right about their ability to race in the rain. But, I maintain that no series is great until they race in the snow. After all, we must consider all types of weather conditions.

Good point. I watched part of the ARCA race yesterday and the announcer said that they had two races on dirt coming up. A friend and I were talking a while back about NASCAR doing that and I think Tony Stewart has mentioned that he would like to see that happen too. The Springfield Mile would be my first choice.