Ipso - 29 September 2009 08:48 PM

curvhog - 29 September 2009 08:24 PM

From the FIA Tecnical regulations


"7.5 Coolant header tank :
The coolant header tank on the car must be fitted with an FIA approved pressure relief valve which is set to
a maximum of 3.75 bar gauge pressure, details of the relief valve may be found in the Appendix to these
regulations. If the car is not fitted with a header tank, an alternative position must be approved......"

I'm curious what F1 cars do use for coolant because several of the races I've been to lately especially vintage car races specify that no glycol only water may be used as a coolant presumably for environmental reasons.

I believe the only reason glycol is not used on tracks is because it is very slippery, and hard to remove from the track, so it’s like oil if there is a crash. That’s what they tell me anyway when I run my motorcycle at a track day.

I had second thoughts about the environment as soon as I wrote it. I found an link on engine cooling from 5 years ago. Near the bottom it give typical temperatures for oil and water of 100C for oil and 120C for water.

http://www.f1technical.net/features/250

wilmywood8455 - 29 September 2009 08:33 PM

curvhog - 29 September 2009 08:24 PM

From the FIA Tecnical regulations


"7.5 Coolant header tank :
The coolant header tank on the car must be fitted with an FIA approved pressure relief valve which is set to
a maximum of 3.75 bar gauge pressure, details of the relief valve may be found in the Appendix to these
regulations. If the car is not fitted with a header tank, an alternative position must be approved......"

I'm curious what F1 cars do use for coolant because several of the races I've been to lately especially vintage car races specify that no glycol only water may be used as a coolant presumably for environmental reasons.

3.75 bar gauge pressure is 4.75 bar absolute pressure, which yields a water boiling point of ...... wait for it.....302F!
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html

Seems like water is a definite possibility under the rules. My guess would be that they also run an additive, similar to those available in any parts store, to improve the heat transfer properties of the water and possibly to raise the boiling point somewhat, since 2 degrees is a pretty narrow margin. One of the cars at Singapore, a Force India I believe, had a water temp problem yet we saw no coolant being released. They either have a very efficient recovery system or a higher boiling point. Or both.

One thing that nobody mentions in regard to engine oil is that it is rarely if ever the cause of engine failure. The oil simply does not breakdown. What fails are the bearings and the materials they are made out of. Their point of failure is at a lower temperature than that at which oil breakdown becomes a problem.

curvhog - 30 September 2009 10:22 AM

One thing that nobody mentions in regard to engine oil is that it is rarely if ever the cause of engine failure. The oil simply does not breakdown. What fails are the bearings and the materials they are made out of. Their point of failure is at a lower temperature than that at which oil breakdown becomes a problem.

I beg to differ. Oil can break down when it becomes too hot or loses too much viscosity and starts flowing like water. If that happens, then the oil will flow out of the bearings and flow off other parts. This means the moving parts can press through what little oil film is left and start rubbing directly. That increases friction, and thus the temperature of the parts, which is what causes excessive wear, bearing failure, etc. So while technically the oil is not at "breakdown temperature," it has still allowed excessive friction and damage.

Engine parts float on a surface of oil, but like a boat. When the fluid -- oil or water -- becomes too thin, the boat goes on the rocks and the engine fails.

GreyWolf74 - 30 September 2009 11:19 AM

curvhog - 30 September 2009 10:22 AM

One thing that nobody mentions in regard to engine oil is that it is rarely if ever the cause of engine failure. The oil simply does not breakdown. What fails are the bearings and the materials they are made out of. Their point of failure is at a lower temperature than that at which oil breakdown becomes a problem.

I beg to differ. Oil can break down when it becomes too hot or loses too much viscosity and starts flowing like water. If that happens, then the oil will flow out of the bearings and flow off other parts. This means the moving parts can press through what little oil film is left and start rubbing directly. That increases friction, and thus the temperature of the parts, which is what causes excessive wear, bearing failure, etc. So while technically the oil is not at "breakdown temperature," it has still allowed excessive friction and damage.

Engine parts float on a surface of oil, but like a boat. When the fluid -- oil or water -- becomes too thin, the boat goes on the rocks and the engine fails.

The root cause will still be the friction between the moving parts increasing the temperature not the failure of the lubricant.

curvhog - 30 September 2009 11:37 AM

GreyWolf74 - 30 September 2009 11:19 AM

curvhog - 30 September 2009 10:22 AM

One thing that nobody mentions in regard to engine oil is that it is rarely if ever the cause of engine failure. The oil simply does not breakdown. What fails are the bearings and the materials they are made out of. Their point of failure is at a lower temperature than that at which oil breakdown becomes a problem.

I beg to differ. Oil can break down when it becomes too hot or loses too much viscosity and starts flowing like water. If that happens, then the oil will flow out of the bearings and flow off other parts. This means the moving parts can press through what little oil film is left and start rubbing directly. That increases friction, and thus the temperature of the parts, which is what causes excessive wear, bearing failure, etc. So while technically the oil is not at "breakdown temperature," it has still allowed excessive friction and damage.

Engine parts float on a surface of oil, but like a boat. When the fluid -- oil or water -- becomes too thin, the boat goes on the rocks and the engine fails.

The root cause will still be the friction between the moving parts increasing the temperature not the failure of the lubricant.

Lemme put it to you this way:

Oil is supposed to stay between the parts, lubricating them. That's its job.

If oil does not stay between parts, the parts rub, causing friction. That is an oil-related failure.

Oil breakdown, in the chemical sense of turning to smoke and tar, is not the only way an oil can break down or stop working.

The end result in any case is a scorched, worn-out or blown engine.

GreyWolf74 - 30 September 2009 04:53 PM

curvhog - 30 September 2009 11:37 AM

GreyWolf74 - 30 September 2009 11:19 AM

curvhog - 30 September 2009 10:22 AM

One thing that nobody mentions in regard to engine oil is that it is rarely if ever the cause of engine failure. The oil simply does not breakdown. What fails are the bearings and the materials they are made out of. Their point of failure is at a lower temperature than that at which oil breakdown becomes a problem.

I beg to differ. Oil can break down when it becomes too hot or loses too much viscosity and starts flowing like water. If that happens, then the oil will flow out of the bearings and flow off other parts. This means the moving parts can press through what little oil film is left and start rubbing directly. That increases friction, and thus the temperature of the parts, which is what causes excessive wear, bearing failure, etc. So while technically the oil is not at "breakdown temperature," it has still allowed excessive friction and damage.

Engine parts float on a surface of oil, but like a boat. When the fluid -- oil or water -- becomes too thin, the boat goes on the rocks and the engine fails.

The root cause will still be the friction between the moving parts increasing the temperature not the failure of the lubricant.

Lemme put it to you this way:

Oil is supposed to stay between the parts, lubricating them. That's its job.

If oil does not stay between parts, the parts rub, causing friction. That is an oil-related failure.

Oil breakdown, in the chemical sense of turning to smoke and tar, is not the only way an oil can break down or stop working.

The end result in any case is a scorched, worn-out or blown engine.

I think we're essentially saying the same thing but the difference is in what we see as the initiator. My point is that all things being equal oil will do it's job and not initiate any problems. When a part is suddenly starved for oil going through Eau Rouge or if it's a bearing that is to tight to allow adequate flow to both lubricate and carry away the heat from friction it's headed for failure. The problem is with the part not allowing the oil to do it's job leading to yes a lubrication related failure.

curvhog -

I think we're essentially saying the same thing but the difference is in what we see as the initiator. My point is that all things being equal oil will do it's job and not initiate any problems. When a part is suddenly starved for oil going through Eau Rouge or if it's a bearing that is to tight to allow adequate flow to both lubricate and carry away the heat from friction it's headed for failure. The problem is with the part not allowing the oil to do it's job leading to yes a lubrication related failure.

In a word, Yup.

Next: To-MAY-to or To-MAH-to? What's in YOUR Spaghetti sauce? (wink!)

Material failures are almost unheard of in today's engines. Same with lubricant failures. Engine design has advanced to the point where an engine, any engine, if operated within it's design parameters will not exceed the capabilities of the materials or lubes. Parts failures can and do occur. They are almost always the result of a manufacturing defect or improper installation in both race engines, and street cars. Lack of proper maintenance is also a big culprit in street cars. The base oils used in lubes do not break down, it's true. The base oils alone are not sufficient to do the job in todays world. They depend heavily on their additive package. When that package wears out and breaks down from lack of an oil change, excessive wear and eventual failure are inevitable, and it's not the fault of the oil or the materials. Engines that can fail within their design parameters just don't make it to the street or track anymore, and any that do don't stay there long.

Do F1 engines actually have LESS clearance than O.E.M. engines? Typically in drag race engines we run LARGER operating clearances although they are very precise. A typical drag engine has more bearing clearance, more piston to cylinder wall clearance, rod side clearance, wider valve lash, etc. The only tighter clearances I can think of would be ring end gap & piston to valve clearance. I think the reason for preheating the oil is to stabilize engine dimensions and to prevent a pressure spike on "cold" start-up.